Journalist Gideon Levy is one of the most articulate critics of Israeli war and apartheid. He spoke to Jacobin about the grim pro-war mood in Israel and the need for international pressure to end its apartheid system.
Anti-Netanyahu demonstrations in Jerusalem call for a hostage deal, May 20, 2024. (Amir Levy / Getty Images)
Since the Hamas attack on October 7, 2023, Israel has been in a state of emergency. The country is governed by a war cabinet, military censors black out selected reports and expel certain foreign media, and the devastating war in Gaza rages on.
It is often said in Israel that Hamas alone is to blame for everything that has happened since October 7. But the Middle East conflict did not begin just last year. This conflict has a long and bloody history, in the course of which Palestine was occupied by Israel for decades and the Arab population between the Levantine Sea and the Jordan River was disenfranchised.
Few people know this better than the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy, who has been reporting on Israel’s policy of Palestinian displacement and exclusion for decades. In an interview with Hanno Hauenstein for Jacobin, he spoke about the history of the conflict, the possible annexation of the West Bank, and his hopes for the region.
Hanno Hauenstein
This weekend dozens of Palestinians were reportedly killed in an Israeli strike in Gaza intended to kill Hamas military chief Mohammed Deif. Images of the strike show large craters and huge smoke clouds in places that Israel previously designated as “safe zones.” In the operation to free four hostages in Nuseirat a couple weeks ago, well over two hundred Gazans were killed — most of them civilians. Is the fact that there is that high of a price for the war discussed in the Israeli public?
Gideon Levy
No, not at all. I can guarantee you, if it wouldn’t have been two hundred killed in Nuseirat but two thousand, it would still be justified by most of Israel. To them, Israel has the right to do whatever it wants after October 7. And it’s not up to the world to put up limits for us. That’s the mindset. Obviously, there are those who see things differently, but they are a minority and quite scared to raise their voices. Most Israelis would justify any aggression against Palestinians right now, on any scale.
Hanno Hauenstein
Many of the declared goals of the war — to free the hostages, to eliminate Hamas, etc. — have hardly been met nine months in. Is there no sense of doubt in the Israeli public about this ongoing carnage we’re seeing in Gaza?
Gideon Levy
Here Israel is divided. You cannot claim that goals were achieved when Hamas continues to launch rockets and most of the hostages weren’t released. Internationally, Israel is turning into a pariah state. But the right wing will argue it’s all because we didn’t fight strongly enough, because we didn’t kill enough. They believe the Israeli army is not decisive enough. On the other side, there are many who start to understand, after nine months’ delay, that this war can’t achieve its goals because they are unachievable by definition. These are things people like myself said from day one. But still, nobody draws any real conclusions from it, which should have been to stop the war today — not tomorrow, tonight. If after nine months it didn’t achieve anything, it won’t achieve anything after another nine months except more killing and more destruction. Why continue it?
Hanno Hauenstein
Last time we spoke was right around the time of the last Israeli elections, which brought to power this current government driven by extremists. I remember you having very limited expectations in the power of the opposition. We’re now nine months into the war on Gaza. Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians have been killed. Do you see any significant opposition inside Israel today?
Gideon Levy
There is a devoted opposition. They demonstrate every week and even stop the traffic here and there. But they focus only on two things. One is to get rid of Netanyahu. The other is to bring the hostages home. There’s no real opposition to the war, no opposition to Israel’s crimes, no opposition to the mass killing in Gaza. None whatsoever. Therefore, even if Netanyahu were to be replaced, none of the other candidates would change the basic issues, namely the war, the occupation, apartheid. None of them are ready for real change. When it comes to the core issues, Israel will remain the same.
Hanno Hauenstein
Before October 7, there was a lot of protest against Israel’s so-called judicial reform. A small, consistent bloc within those demos, the anti-occupation bloc, actually addressed the issues you just mentioned. They tried to make the connection between Israel’s racial oppression of Palestinians and its judicial restructuring. Was this just a fringe phenomenon?
Gideon Levy
Absolutely. First, in those demos, the mainstream of demonstrators didn’t want them there. They didn’t allow Palestinian flags. They didn’t want anything to do with this issue because they were afraid it would irritate most Israelis. And this bloc is now shrinking even more. People who really oppose war and occupation after October 7 are a much smaller camp.
To be opposed to Netanyahu is very comfortable. You don’t need any courage for this.
Hanno Hauenstein
For years, you repeatedly addressed issues that often remain untouched inside Israel. Interestingly, though, you often defended Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and called out his liberal critics. Why is that?
Gideon Levy
The united front against Netanyahu was only busy in getting rid of him while covering up all the other issues. As if, once we get rid of Netanyahu, Israel will turn into some kind of paradise. As if everything is his fault. But occupation and settlements . . . Israel’s Labor Party started all that, not Netanyahu. Shimon Peres, who received the Nobel Prize for Peace, is responsible for more settlements than Netanyahu. To be opposed to Netanyahu is very comfortable. You don’t need any courage for this. But if you don’t have any personal or programmatic or ideological alternative, this argument is hollow. Second, I also thought that Netanyahu personally was actually at a much higher level as a politician than all the other candidates.
Hanno Hauenstein
Has this position of yours changed at all today?
Gideon Levy
Today I wouldn’t say one good word about Netanyahu. He must go. There can be no doubt about it.
Hanno Hauenstein
These days there’s a lot of talk about the annexation of the West Bank. You have been reporting from the West Bank for decades. Experts have warned that ever since Israel’s finance minister Bezalel Smotrich took over the civil administration, it is no longer just a de facto annexation but a de jure one. Today Palestinian land is being confiscated rapidly. Israel approves more and more houses to be built in settlements. How significant of a change is this?
Gideon Levy
It is very important to the victims, but historically not so much. We crossed the point of no return a long time ago. We crossed the point at which there was any room for a Palestinian state, with seven hundred thousand settlers who will not be evacuated, because nobody will have the political power to do so. The West Bank is practically annexed for many, many years. And, therefore, I’m not so shocked by the possibility of de jure annexation. Many times, I even thought that this would be a good thing. Because once Israel annexes the West Bank de jure, it declares itself an apartheid state. Then nobody can deny it. As long as you don’t do that, you can claim that the occupation is temporary. Nobody can take this discourse seriously anymore. But, you know, those who want to believe in it believe in it.
Hanno Hauenstein
You’re saying, if I understand you correctly, that not annexing it de jure provides a diplomatic cover of sorts?
Gideon Levy
Sure. Because then there is still the two-state solution and all of those other talking points that are totally irrelevant today, in my view. They come too late. But once Israel declares one-state, the masquerade is over. Then nobody in the world will be able to claim that Israel is a democracy. There is no such thing as a democracy when half of your population lives under tyranny. But a de jure [annexation] will make it undeniable and official.
Today we have a vision: one democratic state with equal rights, civil and national, for everyone between the river and the sea.
Hanno Hauenstein
When you say the two-state solution is dead — what would be the alternative?
Gideon Levy
Right now, we are in a quite hopeless moment. But if we zoom out of the current situation, we have de facto been living in one state for over fifty years now. Between the river and the sea, there is only one state. I don’t know any other. The only question that matters is its regime. You cannot be both a democratic state and a Jewish state. Israel clearly chose one aspect over the other by paying lip service to democracy while being well aware that someone who lives in Jenin or in Ramallah has no rights. So it’s simple: Israel is not a democracy.
Today we have a vision: one democratic state with equal rights, civil and national, for everyone between the river and the sea.
Hanno Hauenstein
What would have to happen for this vision to become reality?
Gideon Levy
It must start with international pressure to put an end to apartheid. The world did not agree to have apartheid in South Africa, and so the world has to act in the same way against the second apartheid state — Israel. This structure must be broken. It is against international law and against basic values. But change must also come from within, from both peoples, Palestinians and Israelis. They need to realize, gradually, that the only way to live together is in equality. Right now it seems far-fetched. But [the choice is] either to live in an apartheid state forever or to live in a democracy. There is no third option.
Hanno Hauenstein
International companies like publisher Axel Springer and Booking.com are actively profiting from rentals and sales of houses in the occupied West Bank. Do you follow discussions about international complicity in the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands?
Gideon Levy
These days there is a change in discourse internationally. I have the feeling that after October 7 and after the war in Gaza started, most of the young generation all over the world is sick and tired of Israel’s actions. You see it mainly in the United States, including among many Jewish communities, and you start to see it in Europe more and more too. The world is fed up. What they are seeing in Gaza is unacceptable almost by any standard. And the propaganda tricks of Israel, namely to label criticism of Israel as antisemitism, must be addressed already. I know that Germany will be the last country to do so. But also in Germany, it’s really a question of freedom of speech.
Hanno Hauenstein
Can you elaborate on what you mean exactly?
Gideon Levy
For Germany, Israel is above international law, above morality. I can’t accept this stupid — and I say this word intentionally — behavior. It is stupid because it will just do the opposite. It will increase antisemitism. People will say, Look how the Jews are controlling the world again. We cannot even criticize Israel in our own country. . . .
Hanno Hauenstein
. . . which is an antisemitic trope, of course.
Gideon Levy
First, German historical responsibility does not mean to accept everything Israel does. Who says that is responsibility? Who says it is friendship at all? Who says that supporting a fascist Israel has anything to do with Wiedergutmachung [restitution for the past]? No! That’s not what it is. Second, Germany does also carry some indirect responsibility for the Palestinian people. Without the Holocaust, there would have never been the Nakba.
You hear it more and more: the world is against us, no matter what we do. Which obviously has nothing to do with reality.
Hanno Hauenstein
In recent months, Germany has been cracking down on critical voices domestically when it comes to Israel’s war against Gaza and Germany’s involvement. Do people in Israel follow what’s going on in Germany?
Gideon Levy
The mindset in Israel is that the whole world is antisemitic. You hear it more and more: the world is against us, no matter what we do. Which obviously has nothing to do with reality. But that’s the way it’s perceived. The New York Times is antisemitic, CNN is antisemitic, the UK is antisemitic, Germany is antisemitic. To this you have to add more and more signs of real growing antisemitism in Europe, much of it because of Israel’s policy.
Hanno Hauenstein
I visited Israel and Palestine twice since October. In Israel, I saw street signs pretty much everywhere saying things like Anachnu Nenazeach — “Together we will win” — suggesting a united front supporting the war. What’s your read on this?
Gideon Levy
The unitedness is only under one condition: that it will be along the right-wing alliance. It means united to continue the war, to continue the mass killing in Gaza. If you dare criticize it, you break it. It’s a very fascist call. In essence, it means that you have to follow Netanyahu’s camp and behave accordingly. This is unacceptable. Israel is as divided today as it was before the war. There’s a lot of hatred also between Israelis. And it can easily turn into violence.
Hanno Hauenstein
Have you become a target of hatred in recent months?
Gideon Levy
Only today someone put up a big sign against me. It now hangs on Ayalon, the biggest highway in Tel Aviv. I was told 32,000 shekels were paid for this, which is close to €10,000.
Hanno Hauenstein
How do you cope with things like this?
Gideon Levy
It honestly makes me laugh. But it does gives you a glimpse of the mindset.
Hanno Hauenstein
The media plays an important role in this war. In Israel, it seems extra difficult, since there’s military censorship on specific issues.
Gideon Levy
The censorship is very limited. I wouldn’t read too much into this. The main form of censorship that exists in Israel today is self-censorship.
What you see today [in Israel] is similar to Russian reporting on the war in Ukraine.
Hanno Hauenstein
How do you explain this?
Gideon Levy
Look, for nine months now, we weren’t shown images from Gaza at all. Nobody told the media not to show Gaza. But they know perfectly well that Israelis don’t want to see those images. So they supplied them with this service. And nobody except Haaretz and some smaller online media have the guts to understand that journalism means not to show only what the people expect you to show but to fulfil some kind of social and political mission. Israeli media is totally failing in this. What you see today is similar to Russian reporting on the war in Ukraine.
Hanno Hauenstein
Would you say that Israeli outlets are contributing to state impunity?
Gideon Levy
Absolutely. The media is a major actor already, through all the years of denying or simply ignoring the occupation. But in this war, it reached a peak that I myself have never seen before. If you come here now and turn on the TV, you wouldn’t believe what you see.
Hanno Hauenstein
Is this a development that’s been exacerbated through this government?
Gideon Levy
I think the media under a more liberal government would hardly react differently. Having said that, this current government is considering real antidemocratic measures toward the media, measures no liberal government would dare take on. If it depended on this government, I myself would not have a voice. And if it continues like this for another few years, they might as well shut me down.
Hanno Hauenstein
In the West Bank, we are seeing new levels of violence by settlers and the army these days. What impressions do you have from people you speak to on the ground?
Gideon Levy
In the last thirty-five years, I traveled to the West Bank almost every week. Most of the people I come to don’t know me. I don’t meet politicians or intellectuals. I meet victims of crimes, people who lost children, who lost their land or lost relatives, people who were detained by Israel without trial. Until this day, they were always very ready to talk to me. In thirty-five years, I can recall only one case in which someone didn’t ask me to come and stay in their home. I am still shocked by how open Palestinians are to meet an Israeli journalist and to talk to me. But the atmosphere in the streets there is now quite dangerous. Both the army and settlers are doing horrible things. I don’t know for how long I’ll be able to continue to go.
Hanno Hauenstein
Is there anything that makes you hopeful these days?
Gideon Levy
It’s very hard right now. At times I get some hope from the fact that people who are protesting now at Harvard and Yale and Columbia will be the next generation of American politicians. Hope must come from the outside. When they become secretaries of state and of defense, I hope they will still carry some of what they thought and lived in their university years, that they will at least have some balanced view about what’s going on here.